The DREAD, and why it won’t work.
“No heat, no recoil, no sound, no gunpowder, no flash — just 120,000 rounds per minute of pulverizing power. The next generation of weapons systems has arrived: the DREAD centrifuge-powered weapon system.”
Erm, no.
The DREAD is a weapon system that supposedly offers all sorts of benefits (outlined above). There are many gushing positive articles about it all over the web saying how it could revolutionise warfare ({1}, 2, 3). Unfortunately, they’re all wrong.
How it works
The DREAD consists, as far as I can tell, of a spinning frame that picks up little metal balls, spins them around at 3,000 ft/s (914 m/s), and in later versions, the inventors claim, at 8,000 ft/s (about 2.3 km/s). That’s very fast. Not only that, but it can fire 2,000 of these every second.
Lets pick apart the claims shall we?
1. No Recoil
As every secondary (or ‘high’) school physics student knows, and as Mr. Newton so kindly demonstrated for us, there is no action without an equal and opposite reaction. Basically, if you throw something one way, you get pushed the other.
This manifests itself in the recoil of a gun — bullet flies off in one direction, the gun gets kicked back in the other. It’s how propeller, rocket and jet engines work (throwing air/fuel backwards in order to go forwards). Nothing is exempt from the rule. Not even the DREAD.
So how much recoil would a DREAD produce? By my calculations one of the 0.5 calibre balls would have a mass of about 60 g (assuming the density of iron). A simple calculation shows that at 8,000 f/s, 2,000 every second, the recoil would be like a force of 300,000 N. Thats equivalent to 31 tonnes of recoil. You’d have a hard time keeping that steady.
Note: For those of you who are picky, I know recoil is not a force but a series of impulses. What I’m quoting here is an ‘equivalent force’, if you like.
2. No Sound
True, there’s no explosion, which is most of the noise from a gunshot. But, there are metal balls travelling at 7 times the speed of sound, 120,000 a minute, and these will generate one hell of a sonic boom. However, I guess it’s fair to say it will be harder to tell where the shooter is.
3. No Heat
From what I can tell, the spinning bit on it can’t be more than about 30 inches wide. To have a rim speed of 2.3 km/s, it would need to spin at nearly a thousand times a second, or 60,000 rpm. That’s fast, but not outlandishly fast (some turbines can reach 150,000 rpm) so this claim I guess will not be too bad.
However, there is another problem, and that is:
4. No Gyroscopic Effect
Have you ever held a spinning bike wheel by its axle and tried to turn it? You’ll find it doesn’t move the way you want it to. This is called precession, or the gyroscopic effect. It’s what keeps a gyroscope or spinning top upright, and makes it difficult to turn spinning things. And the DREAD is spinning very, very, very fast, and so should experience a massive amount of gyroscopic effect. But it’s alright, because:
“According to Charles St. George, the DREAD’s inventor, the DREAD does NOT create/cause ANY gyroscopic forces or effects, whatsoever. To put it another way, the DREAD does NOT act like a gyroscope. So, the DREAD will NOT have ANY adverse effect on the mounting vehicle’s maneuverability, even while the DREAD is being fired on its highest rpm and velocity settings. NO adverse effect. None, whatsoever. I can’t make it any clearer than that.”
Well, that’s okay then.
4. Totally reliable
Defense Review claims that the weapon cannot stop or jam. No evidence has been produced to back up this claim, but it seems incredible that something with parts moving round at 60,000 rpm won’t experience at least a little wear and tear (especially in a combat environment, where its being knocked about and dust, sand etc. could get inside), and it seems reasonable to assume that this will eventually bring the whole thing to a stop.
Conclusion
I’m sure the concept could be made to work. However, not the way they’re saying it could. What’s worse, the inventors are promoting their device by making outrageous claims based on pseudo-physics and downright lies. The websites linked to above repeat these claims without knowing the first thing about basic physics (even New Scientist), and in doing so mislead the general public.
DREAD homepage (now defunct, 8/05/2008)
Edit: Why the DREAD produces recoil
There has been some doubt expressed as to whether allowing a projectile to leave (rather than forcing it) can generate recoil. I argue that it can, and here’s my why.
Note: secondary (high) school physics required.
In a normal rifle, there is an explosion that exerts a force forwards on the bullet, pushing it forward. There is an equal force on the rifle, pushing it backwards. This means the rifle has a momentum backwards, towards your shoulder.
In order to bring the rifle to a halt, your shoulder has to exert a force on the rifle butt, forwards. This, by Newton’s third law, means that rifle exerts a force on you, into your shoulder (backwards). This is the force that is felt as recoil.
In the DREAD, we have the scenario of a spinning disk with masses arranged equally around the edge. For simplicity, we will assume there are just two. This disk is spinning, but because the centre of mass is not moving and so has no overall momentum. With the disk spinning clockwise:
COM is the centre of mass of the entire system, p denotes the momentum of each ball. Notice how, because the balls are travelling in opposite directions, the momenta cancel out to zero.
However, imagine that the left projectile is now released. It is no longer attatched to the gun, and so can be discounted as not part of the system. We now have this situation:
The ball on the left is detatched from the disk, and now rapidly flying towards the top of the picture, but we can ignore it.
Now, the total momentum of the system is p, backwards into your shoulder. This, like the situaton described above, means that your shoulder pushes against the gun, the gun pushes against your shoulder, and hence: we have recoil.
If your shoulder wasn’t there, the DREAD would continue to fly backwards forever (or until it hit something). Notice that it has momentum p, thus momentum is conserved. I know I’ve only demonstrated it with two balls, but this argument can be generalised to more.
If you’ve managed to follow this, congratulations, hopefully you too can decry the DREAD as pseudoscientific blather.
If you haven’t, please don’t make angry posts.


Woo Steve is back! And with a suitably controversial and combat-oriented article. And only one typo for me to correct too :p
Edd
| Posted 2 years, 8 months agoRegarding your comment on the lack of recoil, you are working under the wrong assumption. The weapon is NOT propelling the projectile forward. The weapon is spinning a disc full of them, all at the same speed and the equal and opposite reaction is outward from the axis of the spin. When the portal is opened, a projectile is ALLOWED to exit, not forced to. No energy is expended to push the projectile forward other than it’s already created inertia, ergo, no perceived (or felt) recoil. If you take a stone in a sling and wirl it around your head, when you release it you will feel no recoil. That is because you have already imparted it’s inertia with the spinning effort.
As for your comment on the gyroscopic effect, of course there is, but as long as it’s in the same relative plane as the vehicle, it’s going to be negligible.
| Posted 2 years, 7 months agoThis is a very complicated issue. I think I might have to update the page with a section on why the DREAD would produce recoil. However, what you are implying, Cj Claus, is that it is possible to build a little black box that spits mass out in one direction and but not another. This violates the principle of conservation of momentum.
As for my comment of the gyroscopic effect: true, but I would prefer it if they said that, rather than deny it existed.
| Posted 2 years, 7 months agoSteve,
I agree that it’s a complicated issue, but you apparently didn’t read my remark completely. I never said that there was no reaction to the movement of the projectile. As I believe I explained thoroughly, the mass is accelerated within the disc, generating inertia (and gyroscopic effect) around the axis of the device. Remember that it is inerita that produces the equal and opposite reaction, and that forcing a stationary object to accelerate in a given direction produces recoil in the opposite direction. Since you are accelerating the projectiles in a circle within a confined space, your equal and oposite reaction would be making the other projectile (assuming for a second that there are only two) move to the opposite side of the circle, accross from the first, and at exactly the same speed, and with the same force. The faster that you spin the disc, the more force (again inertia, or momentum) is applied to the disc. If you could continue to accelerate the disc beyond it’s ability to withstand the forces being generated by the projectiles inside of it, it would burst. Would you not agree that the projectiles would fling out at whatever velocity they had gained by the rotation of the disc? Now, if only one of them escaped (key word there… escaped) the only “felt” recoil would be the unbalanced load inside the disc. There is a reaction, however it isn’t anything that could be considered “recoil” in the sense of a bullet leaving a rifle. As any good shooter would tell you, recoil is in the perception. Ergo the use of compensators, heavy stocks/barrels, and rubber or other soft compound pads on the butt. The less you feel, the better you’ll like it, but it does not change what is actually happening, just the perception of it. Conservation of energy is observed. There is nothing magic here.
Also, I would assume that as one projectile leaves, another is dropped in to the spinning disc at the same time, and as it would then begin to accelerate to the speed of the disc, the energy consumed to accelerate it should equal your reaction. One out, one in. Ought to shake like hell when it’s running out of ammo, though, I’d think.
The last thing is that I didn’t intend to insult you or even to imply that in any way. If that’s the way my writing comes off, I am sorry. Oh, you really don’t need to use my full name. Cj would be fine.
| Posted 2 years, 7 months agoYou’re right CJ, recoil is perception. In a normal rifle, the explosive charge gives an impulse (by this I mean a change in momentum) to the bullet and an equal impulse to the rifle in the opposite direction. This means the rifle is travelling towards your shoulder. In order to slow it down, your shoulder imparts a force on the butt of the rifle. It is the reaction force to this — that of the rifle pressing into your shoulder — that is percieved, and that is uncomfortable. The use of compensators/rubber/pads etc. is only used to reduce this force and spread it out over a longer period of time, to make things more comfortable.
I agree with almost all of what you have written. To try and settle the matter, I’m writing a new paragraph that’ll try and explain things the way I see them. Remember: ‘recoil’ that is felt is your shoulder trying to slow the weapon down after it has been given an impulse (given momentum, or given velocity, or speed, however you want to put it).
Oh, and I didn’t feel insulted. I’m sorry if it came across that way.
| Posted 2 years, 7 months agoGood article steve. However I think the company developing this weapon will be able to over come these problems. Im not an expert in any of these areas so Im not going to start saying who’s right or wrong out of yourself and CJ, however from what I know it seems what CJ is saying could be correct.
| Posted 2 years, 3 months agoFirst of all, sorry about resurrecting an article that’s been dead 7 months – but I’ve only recently heard about DREAD, and this is the first place I’ve seen anything but advertising drivel…
@CJ:
| Posted 1 year, 11 months agoI agree with your analysis of the cause of recoil; indeed, it would come from the sudden force imbalance caused by the ‘escaping’ ball. However, just ‘adding another ball the chamber’ immediately will not right the balance – the new ball starts at zero velocity, so it contributes no force in the direction of firing. In order for it to immediately step in place of the vacating ball, it must be pre-accelerated to the same velocity, which could only really be done by exerting an opposing force on the mounting. Suffice to say that regardless of whether this is actually attempted or not (I assume we need some way of injecting the new ball at an already comparable velocity, otherwise it’ll get nailed by the others coming around), we still get the recoil from a single ball leaving the chamber, equivalent to that of a rifle in terms of momentum transfer. With this established, it seems that Steve’s initial calculation is still correct.
One other problem with this device. Has anyone computed the power required to accelerate this mass of metal? Assuming that you are accelerating 60 g from 0 to 2000 metres per second – that’s 120,000 Joules. You are apparently able to do this 2,000 times per second – that gives 240 million Joules per second, or a power supply of 240 MW. Probably a little more than the average car alternator can handle.
| Posted 1 year, 2 months ago